Wednesday, May 22, 2013

Perfect 10 Progesterone & Other Curious Findings



I finished reading Dr. Raymond Peat’s book “From PMS to Menopause. Female Hormones In Context” and I am now (re)reading the articles collected in "Nutrition For Women". I will soon write review those. For now, I will just comment on my test results.

In his book, Ray Peat recommends a ratio from five to ten times more progesterone than estrogen in serum levels. He does, on several occasions, mention the possibility of progesterone’s turning into “other hormones”, but he never takes this idea to its full consequence, namely, natural progesterone's possible final transformation into Public Enemy No. 1, estrogen. I think that, sooner or later, he should address this, because it is an important part of the hormonal equation, one that has not received the necessary focus up to now.

Drum rolls, please, as my progesterone levels were exactly TEN TIMES the amount of my estrogen, many weeks after my short Progest-E experiment, when I felt things had returned back to normal. Not five, not six, not seven... Perfect 10 me! 

(So, well, I was right all along, and those who tried to tell me my symptoms stemmed from a potential “liver issue” better learn that their imaginary knowledge of how hormones can affect one would be best not shared out there. Also, if a woman describes previously non-existent symptoms of estrogen and cortisol spikes after taking natural progesterone, you can believe her, although Dr. Peat and other proponents of natural progesterone never explicitly discuss the possibility.)

I also had good levels of DHEAs. I am sorry I didn't check my pregnenolone, I forgot, but I soon will.

Now, for the thyroid part of my labs: despite supplementation of 50 mcg of T4 for almost a month, my levels of T3 and T4 are only slightly changed. That is, T3 decreased a tiny bit, but it was already in mid-range, from 2.55 to 2.43, in a range of 1.71-3.71 pg/ml. T4 went from 13.4 to 13.52 in a range of 12-22 pmol/l, so it’s still lagging towards the lower part of the admissible spectrum, Levothyroxine or no Levothyroxine. TSH was the only one that took a spectacular dive, from 5.21 to 1.90, on range of 0.21 to 4.60 mui/l. This made my GP happy, albeit a bit mistrusting of the Romanian labs, so I will repeat them here in two weeks or so. I wanted to move up to 75 mcg of T4, but she said that would not be warranted and that raising my metabolism was not what she had in mind, to begin with — just getting rid of the TSH, while settling in the thyroid range my body chooses, as long as that is within what is considered normal.

I can understand her wish to tamper with key metabolic things as little as possible. However, if I ever receive my T3 supplements (I ordered them online at mymexicandrugstore.mx), I will try to supplement a little bit of that and see how I feel.

For the bad news of the day, after one year of constant and considerable decline, my TPO antibodies rose again, from 535 to 731 (normal: below 5.61!) The TGO antibodies have decreased (could this be due to the Anatabloc supplementation?) and are now within acceptable limits — but they were never that high to begin with (from 4.25 to 3.52, they should be below 4.11.)

Anyway, I do feel better with this (loosely) Peatian diet and the little T4 I am taking. I have more zest for life, more energy and my circadian rhythms are excellent — at night, there is this magnificent tired feeling, like when I was a child and I would drop in the evening, brain foggy, muscles tired, to only wake up in the morning, refreshed and ready to take on a new day. This is in itself a superb achievement and might bring with it a lot of good.

Let me not forget my “pre-diabetic” story. It turns out one should never buy cheap blood sugar monitors. After so much worrying about it, the serum glucose lab test revealed a nice 84 in a range of 60 to 105 mg/dl. My home measurement that morning: over 110. So I stopped DIY-ing in this department. 

Heart: curiously high diastolic pressure, more often than not, and a puny pulse pressure.



You can see from the upper part of the graph above that I am trying my hardest to push my calories intake and my body reacts, by packing on pounds. I fight back by reducing calories, only to start again pushing my luck. I am curious if I changed anything after all this effort, if I went past 1600 calories a day while maintaining my weight -- I shall soon check on Cronometer. 

And finally, in the ears department: another infection, this time in the right ear. I took cyprofloxacine. The otolaryngologist said I should maybe consider a CT scan or an X-ray. I said no way. She insisted, maybe at least an ultrasound? I already did that and they found nothing, just some inflamed lymph nodes. She still seemed worried. I told her about my progesterone and pregnenolone supplementation and the ear pains and now the repetitive infections — she said she would not be surprised if those played a role, because the ears are lined with mucous tissue and they react to hormones.

14 comments:

  1. Hello,
    I'm curious to know how long, how much, and often you supplemented with the progesterone and pregnenelone. I was told by my doc that I have estrogen dominance (which was not verified by blood test however). I was considering taking the above mentioned supplements but after reading your experience I'm a bit leery. Do you think there is a way to use these supp's without them causing damage (blood tests perhaps)? How did you determine dosage? Do feel that the Peat diet is actually improving your thyroid function? BTW thanks for this blog, it's quite interesting.

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  2. Hey GuavaGirl,

    Dosage: I followed Dr. Peat's recommendations -- 3 drops of Progest-E a day, for about two weeks, and 30 mgs of Pregnenolone, on two or three occasions, afterwards, just to experiment.

    I am still at a loss what to think about my thyroid function. The levels of T3 and T4 being the same as before supplementation/Peat dieting, a lower TSH and a higher experienced level of energy are the only clues that, who knows, maybe at the cellular level things did improve, but that is not reflected in serum levels of thyroid hormones, which may have a tendency to stay the same? On the contrary, higher antibodies means something is not right about this diet and I suspect diary, for now, so my next step is to completely remove cow diary and check if that makes a difference.

    I am obviously not qualified to advise anyone on this, but my conclusion is that one should use the internet wisely and extensively (going to the root of the studies, PubMed, etc.) and trying to identify the few doctors who really know what hormones can do. Many reputable doctors are left behind on their level of knowledge, as science has evolved at a breakneck speed and they have not kept pace with it, sadly. The same might stay true for scientists like Dr. Ray Peat, who wrote his books many years ago and who based a lot of his recommendations on relatively sparse case studies and personal observations. Many women who advocate his positions on boards, etc. have had excellent results themselves, so they feel secure in their recommendations, because their own experiences mirror what Dr. Peat described. But reading things like this study abstract or this one makes it very clear that progesterone supplementation can also be harmful, and not in the "mildly anesthetic" way Peat and his followers describe (search further on “progesterone and meningioma” on PubMed, for instance.)

    Also, many endocrinologists and gynecologists specialize sharply and, while they might be excellent diabetologists or obstetricians or adept surgeons, they are hopelessly inadequate when it comes to advising a woman on her hormonal challenges.

    So, if possible, do check your hormone levels and shop around for the right doctor who will see you through this. A doctor advised me to look for good endocrinologists and/or gynecologists by asking for the advice of the lab technicians or biologists in a given area — those guys apparently can evaluate how these physicians do in the course of their work on the blood panels.

    I am also finding more and more on boards, from women who go through reproductive challenges and through intensive hormonal treatments — they have a lot to share on these topics.

    I do believe that there is such a thing as right sexual steroid supplementation. Carefully monitoring your symptoms and double checking what you are doing with blood tests, preferably under doctor supervision, but even on your own if you can obtain the tests and get sufficient information about the whole process, is the way to go, IMHO.

    I have learned A LOT about my body trying to read, follow and evaluate Ray Peat's recommendations -- if only for that, and my gratitude for the man (and the movement, although it is pretty awash in people who THINK they know what they are recommending/doing) is huge!

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  3. Thanks for your reply!

    Maybe I'll skip the Progest-e and stick with my current prescription supplement which is called Prometrium. It's derived from peanut oil but since I only take 100mg/day I should think the PUFAs are pretty inconsequential. I have been taking it for 10 days every 3 months but I was thinking I should take it more often to keep estrogen balanced out. But upon reading your post, maybe that's not such a great idea. Interestingly, I have to take it vaginally in order for it to produce a period. I'm pretty convinced, however, that it's the hypothyroid that's causing the hormone imbalance because when I first started taking Armour I felt great for about the first 3 months, and actually got a period during that time without taking the progesterone.

    I really appreciate your links on the meningiomas; I'll have to look into that a bit more. Have you come across any indications of adverse affects with pregnenolone? I have to research this one too.

    Unfortunately, I spent most of the last 10 yrs researching constipation, gut dysfunction, and small intestine bacteria overgrowth when really it's evident to me now that those problems all stem from hypothyroid. So I'm basically starting from scratch with the hormone research.

    I have the same concern with cow dairy. Although I haven't gotten my antibodies checked yet I do know that casein can leak through the gut and cause auto-immune reactions (in people that have inflamed guts) which is why I quit all dairy about 4 yrs ago. I think it was contributing to eczema and possibly pimples. I realize I need the calcium and other nutrients though so I got some aged goat cheese yesterday, the proteins are different and theoretically easier on the gut.

    My main concern though is that I see that I have developed a pattern in regards to diet and health; first I thought it was 80-10-10 that would save me, then it was Dr. Furhman's Eat to live diet, then it was the SCD, then it was 180degreehealth.com Eat for heat, now I'm onto this Dr. Ray Peat thing. When will it end? I do the research but for every study I read (mostly Pubmed stuff) there's another study out there that contradicts it. Dr. Furhman's mostly vegan diet had numerous peer-reviewed studies, empirical evidence, and a lot of anecdotal evidence as well to support it, yet it only exasperated my symptoms. For the past 8-10 yrs. I've spent the majority of my free time researching; I barely have a social life anymore, I hardly see my family... I spend all my time researching! Am I just falling into another health craze fad? Are all the hours spent researching, all the constant biological monitoring, all the money spent on doctors and blood tests, finding and preparing all special foods, etc...is all worth it in the end? Or am I just going to end up having to take ever increasing dosages of thyroid meds and laxatives anyway no matter what I do so I might as well get away from this computer and try and enjoy life? (sorry, guess I just needed to vent a bit!)

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    Replies
    1. Just to let you know Calm magnesium by Natural Vitality (from Iherb) better and safer than a laxative.

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    2. This might be worth looking into. I am convinced I had developed Crohn's disease ten years ago and I mainly used this and became free of symptoms or clinical signs within weeks. Ibupofen toward the end helped with straggling inflammation too.
      http://aloevin.com/comparison.htm

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  4. :)

    All this studying and playing around with hormones made me fear them less, actually, despite the horror stories. I realized how incredibly powerful they are and how clueless my doctors have been in the past (because I let them be and I trusted them too much!) Now I am all out to find the professionals that can truly guide me.

    I don't resent the hours I spent researching, I learned a lot and it has been an intriguing journey. It rearranged a lot of priorities for me and stopped me from spending time on projects that mattered little, in the big scheme of things...

    That being said... Progesterone is not for me, but it may be right for you.

    I told the reproductive endocrinologist I saw about my Progest-E experiment and asked whether I may have transformed it all into estrogen and cortisol. He laughed and said, "Well, not *all of it*, but some of it, definitely". He thought that I shouldn't play around with the contents of that bottle. I said, "It's carcinogenic, right?" He acted surprised that I might know this, but agreed that it can be, under certain circumstances.

    That being said... I am and have been my entire life low in estrogen (no PMS, but serious onset pain during the first day). I had to take very potent painkillers to deal with it. However, none of my doctors figured out the low estrogen part. I realized it recently, when reading Katharina Dalton's "Once A Month". It was old science, for crying out loud! Why wasn't this common knowledge already, why didn't any doctor tell me? It is mind numbing!

    We are all so different, really, that is why I don't think we can truly predict what our body will do based on other people's experiences. I wouldn't want to be the one to turn you off from something that might do you a world of good, so please don't base your decisions on my experiences, take them for what they are worth...

    Regarding constipation and the general slowness of being from hypothyroidism: why was it only during the first three months of Armour that you actually felt better? I thought that was the ultimate in thyroid medication... And if it is not, for you, have you tried the classic T4/T3 combination, recommended by Peat? You might do better on it, from all points of view.

    I am not sure which is triggering which in this hormonal game -- whether the thyroid is messing the ovaries or the other way around... Their interplay is fascinating and acting on both at the same time might be the answer, so a little progesterone and the right thyroid combination might work wonders.

    I also read that the type of period one gets after progesterone is not truly a period, is more of a "progesterone withdrawal bleeding". So acting on the thyroid should be more meaningful, as it triggers ovulation and the entire function?

    I am currently reading Transdermal Magnesium Therapy" -- and I bought some magnesium chloride, maybe that will work...

    Miracles promised everywhere, isn't life fun? Why stop reading these things, trying new diet tricks? I like to believe in fairy tales with nutrients, to hope for a new "me"... And, sometimes, the progress is real! Take heart, you might recoup the time wasted on research by more quality years to spend with those you might neglect a little today!

    P.S. I apologize for the "cow diary", heheh! What could one of those sound like?

    "Today they gave me 9.5 kg dry matter and 750 g saturated fat, plus an additional 4 kg of concentrate. I love concentrate! Anyway, I am taking part in this study, they want to see how our diet might slow the clearance of progesterone." :)

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  5. "cow diary..." LOL!

    I do feel better about the research now that I know I'm researching the root problem. It's still a bit exhausting for me though. But yea I suppose it will be beneficial in the long run.

    It's weird with Armour though, that it only worked for 3 months. I'll have to look into the T3/T4.

    You're right about Progesterone induced period. It doesn't even feel like a real period so I know it's not optimal. Gotta get the hypothyroid thing under control.

    I did find the magnesium supplement was the most helpful out of all the supplements I've taken, for the constipation at least, but I've been taking the oxide and citrite form so it's probably not helping at a cellular level. The transdermal magnesium therapy sounds pretty interesting.

    I think I'm going to get a little extra help from http://www.functionalps.com/services#nutrition. Plus I think I'm going to look into some acupuncture.

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  6. Magnesium chloride baths seem very powerful. My skin is still tingling form yesterday's experience. It feels strange, I cannot explain it very well. "Stimulated", to use a Peat word. A fresh/almost cold feeling, an openness, if you will. I am very intrigued. I used a cup of Nigari salt, http://www.kameyamado.com/english/home.html, food grade, with a cup or two of baking soda. Today I bought another kilo of Nigari, it is a keeper.

    My doctor also prescribed oral magnesium supplementation and I have been doing that for a while, without noticeable effect.

    Good luck with the coaching experience and the acupuncture!

    I have done a one week course in energy balancing with a method derived from acupuncture called Jin Shin Jyutsu. Very interesting theory/philosophy or physiophilosophy, as they like to call it. But I am a lousy "self-helper". I should experiment more with it.

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  7. I just stumbled across your post as I am interested in Dr. Peat and his dietary and thyroid info. HOWEVER was hugely alarmed to see that you have taken cipro antibiotic. Please, a warning to you and all others who care enough to research your health issues so carefully. The.'Flox' family of antibiotics are deadly; they cause immense often irreversable health problems, seemingly unrelated, can injure autonomic and central nervius systems and wreak havoc. These antibiotics are CIPRO, AVELOX, and LEVAQUIN. Read the FLOX REPORT. Google Cipro toxicity. Check out numerous facebook pages regarding fluoroquinolone toxicity. And finally, read Mayo report frim 2012 on Cipro. These were meant to be antibiotics of last resort, and have a scouging mechanism unlike all ither antibiotics. Many people permanently disabled -afterson numerous systemic failures from muscular to digestive and more. A Warning to All Who Care!

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    Replies
    1. Hey Manzanita,

      Thank you for the thoughtful warning-- I will do more research on the "flox" antibiotics and read all you recommended. I noticed that ciprofloxacin drops are becoming the standard treatment for ear infections in some parts of the world... While the US presentations of this antibiotic give an idea of its toxicity, check out the Romanian introduction to it, which is far from getting people worried... As a result, it is becoming a drug of choice for ear infections here. :(

      http://www.sfatulmedicului.ro/medicamente/ciprofloxacin-solutie-oftalmicaauriculara_15252

      Thanks again!

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    2. Sorry, I thought I had linked to the Google translation of that page, please ignore the above, this is the text I was referring to:

      "Ciprofloxacin ophthalmic solution / auricular

      Prospectus

      Presentation: Solution Ophthalmic / auricular, 0.3%; ct.1 fl. 5 ml

      Indications
      Administration systemic :

      Uncomplicated and complicated infections caused by organisms susceptible to ciprofloxacin :
      respiratory infections ;
      ENT infections;
      eye infections;
      Renal and urinary infections;
      genital infections;
      gastrointestinal tract infections,
      biliary infections, peritonitis, infections of skin and soft tissue;
      infections of bones and joints;
      sepsis;
      infection or risk of infection (for prophylaxis) in immunosuppressed patients;
      selective intestinal decontamination in immunosuppressed patients.
      Topical:
      corneal ulcers with:
      Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Serratia marcescens, Staphylococcus aureus, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Streptococcus pneumoniae , Streptococcus,
      bacterial conjunctivitis:
      Haemophilus influenzae, Staphylococcus aureus, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Streptococcus pneumoniae, diffuse otitis externa, ear infections with other germs sensitive


      Dosage and administration :
      Systemic Administration: Adults: Domestic: 125-500 mg 1-2 times / day infusion solution: 100-400 mg 1-3 times / day. Iv initial treatment can be continued with internal admininistrarea. Treatment duration: at least 3 days after resolution of fever or clinical symptoms. Elderly patients and those with IR doses are adjusted according to the severity of disease and creatinine clearance . Topical: Conjunctivitis: 1-2 drops in 15 minutes - 4:00, depending on the condition being treated. Auricular: 3-4 drops 2-4 times / day or more frequently as needed.


      Contraindications
      Hypersensitivity. Pregnant women.


      Alerts
      system administration:
      The emergence of severe and persistent diarrhea conceals pseudomembranous colitis. There may be a temporary increase in transaminases, alkaline phosphatase or cholestatic jaundice. caution in patients with epilepsy, depression or psychosis. For signs of tendonitis, administration should be discontinued. caution in patients with myasthenia gravis. In children and adolescents might appear severe arthropathy. And should avoid direct exposure to sunlight or excessive ultraviolet. The intravenous administration of local skin reactions have been reported. In topical administration: before using ophthalmic lenses must be removed. auricular administration requires careful monitoring of the patient. Prolonged use may result in overgrowth of non-susceptible organisms, including fungi, in the eye or the ear canal. Treatment should be discontinued if an occurrence of skin rash or any other sign of hypersensitivity. Caution when combined with iron, sucralfate, antacids containing magnesium, aluminum, calcium, or zinc salts as buffer medicines (antiretrovirals) , theophylline, cyclosporine, warfarin, glyburide, probenecid, metoclopramide, didanosine, caffeine. Driving cautiously in people with activities precision."

      So, even "uncomplicated infections" are supposed to be treated with this stuff...:(

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    3. Hi,
      I've been taking Progest E for about 3 months now and three weeks ago had to have a salivary hormone test. The test results came in a week ago with Progesterone at greater than 15900 pmol (that stupendously high) and Estrone (E1) at 148 (which is very high).

      My doctor doesn't know what to do.

      I think coming off the Progest E is my first step!

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    4. Wow, that is a lot of progesterone "protecting" your tissues... I hope Dr. Peat can learn from your experience...

      I am a poor metabolizer of progesterone (among many other steroids and drugs) -- yet another genetic short straw I drew... or maybe it wasn't so short, who knows... Maybe it prevented my playing with that stuff, my body is revolted by a mere drop added -- I tried to use some once for a burn and, again, it went straight to my head...

      However, I hope this is not your case as well. "Poor metabolizers" are 3-5% among Caucasians and 20-30% among Asians. If you did your genome, you might want to check your CYPs...

      And, especially if you were among the poor metabolizers, it might be a good idea to not wait for a few months until your body metabolizes on its own all that extra progesterone... Talk to your doctor about Calcium-D-Glucarate or other such hormone detox aids.

      I hope you are doing well and you have no symptoms. Good thing you checked your levels! :)))

      And best of luck getting your hormones back in balance!

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    5. Hi, yep I read all these posts w great interest. my 2 takeaway points: I wanna sleep like a baby too, and also the heavy duty antibiotic. I once received a week of cipro in hospital and am still shocked by that (20 y.a.)Inspiring to see use of protest 3 and I plan to try it

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